VCR Interfunk/Grundig/Siemens 2000 - White spots, snow / Accepts tape but won't play

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Interfunk/Grundig/Siemens VCR 2000 - White spots, snow / Accepts tape but won't play

    







BID = 775337

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel
 

  


Hi Stego!

No, I don't use to give up that easy!
Unfortunately, the joy didn't last long. It took way much more time than a few minutes, but now the situation is almost like at the beginning (to be sincere, a bit better).

At least I'm coming to some conclussions. My problems with the Interfunk machine seem to be a combination of two or three factors. It seems that degradation and quality of my tapes are playing an important role.

After cleaning, picture was almost perfect. When I rechecked yesterday, I noticed there were a few spots randomly here and there. After about 5 minutes of playing, I can say they were totally gone. I was watching a tape of a local festival my father shoot more than 20 years ago with his "famicon" (or whatever it was called) camera, the one which worked in conjunction with the "split" Phillips V2000 model, and I have to say te quality was very, very good!!My theory is that running the tape "completed" the head cleaning. Then, I had the misfortune of trying with another tape, the most deteriorated one: quality was awful, it was looking probably more bad than the last time I tried. After a couple of minutes I went back to the previous tape... Guess what? It was full of white lines and noise. Awful image. I was almost crying ... but I noticed the degradation seemed to be improving while playing. Yeah! Another 10 minutes and all the noise was gone again!!!

So the conclussion is that is very probably that at least that tape is being destroyed and polluting the heads while playing.

Watching the situation, I hurried to capture the tape before it was too late (yestarday I bought one 1 TB new HD just to capture). Tape was playing smoothly. The VCR was connected to my PC and I was making capture tests with Virtualdub. Then the program crashed (by the way, I couldn't fix it: my Virtualdub will crash everytime I try to access the audio compression properties - so I have to capture my audio in full raw mde! :evil:). By the time I restarted the program some seconds later... the image appeared full of noise again!!!!

I kept the machine running for quite some time now but this time the quality didn't improve. I am frustrated 'cause I didn't catch the precise moment when the image went from 100% to 50%! I don't know if another cleaning will help and I'm afraid of wearing the components because of so much cleaning.

What I know now is that I'll be very quick next time to capture something before degradation arrives. Also, I know which tape I will digitize the last one.

FYI, the "awful quality" tape is an Agfa, and the superb one is Scotch.

If I ever am able to capture the most degradated one in any way, I think probably I'll try later a "tape cook" just to see if it improves anything. Anyway, I'm almosst sure that process should had been done before any playing with the tape.

About my other machines: yesterday I got my order from Farnell... just to realize that most of the capacitors are the wrong sizes, so most of them won't fit on the PCB. Worst of all is that the most suspicious one (and one of the biggest), the 1200 pf, 2000 V, I got it in mm size, so no way. Also I measured it and I got about 900, whan the service manual specifies a 5% tolerance, so theorically it is out of specs... The rest of the capacitors where almost replaced even before getting the order, and the "old", suspicious, replaced components where measured and they were OK, even the ones that looked like burned.... Also I got a cople of resistors and varistors that I will use in my 3rd and 4th old 2x4 videos, one of whose I was using for peaces.

As I said, I'm not giving up that easy...

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BID = 775466

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

 

  

Hello Perepandel,

very nice to hear, that you don´t give up the V-2000.

Well, well...... as I have already written, the "bad" tapes are (along with some others) the AGFA types!
I think, the magnetic coating of this AGFA tapes will be shaved from the polyester film!
Then the magnetic heads will be "glued" with the magnetic coating material, the picture is bad.

After cleaning, the picture is good - but not for a long time.


Offtopic :
Last winter, I repaired a V-2000 2x8 stereo for a friend. Inside the machine, there was a AGFA VCC-480 cassette. After successfully repairing the machine, i tried the cassette. AWFUL!!! After playing the tape, perhaps half an hour, i had to clean the heads again!
Now i took several tapes from my collection (BASF, Philips, Scotch) - no problem!

The same problem as with the V-2000 AGFA tapes I also have with my AGFA Betamax tapes! The same tape, the same magnetic coating - but the BETA machine has no head-drum spinning, but only the head carrier is spinning, the drum is fixed. And so, the coating does not peel of the polyester film this fast as with the V-2000 tapes.


Wish you all the best with your tapes! Hope, you can transfer them to digital device successfully!

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 775654

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego,

Unfortunately, I have no luck on this.

Yesterday I cleaned again the heads. When I put my Scotch "good" tape, the result was afwul: even more noise than before cleaning, and I even notice some "waving" in the screen, from left to right. It didn't improve after half an hour playing the tape.

I'm afraid that I could have damaged the heads due to so much cleaning.

I don't know what else to try. I think it's too soon to clean again the motor. Maybe I'll try to add some graphite to the vaseline in the motor, to gain some conductivity.

Will keep you informed if there is any improvement...


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BID = 775703

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

By the way, I have a few more doubts that I'm going to post here, hoping Stego or any other experienced user helps me

As I said in a previous message, unfortunately most of the capacitors I ordered to replace these ones on the power supply are of different physical sizes/measures due to my poor knowledge in electronics. I'd try to solder them anyway on the PCB, maybe with some extra soldering work, joining the parts with cables and that all. But I want to be sure it is OK to do that proven that the electrical characteristics are correct (which is the case, excepting some capacitors with higher voltage specifications due to not having the exact ones available). The most eccentric case is my substitute for the 1200 pF one, which in my case the one I ordered (the only one available) is about 1/20th the width of the original one! I've tested it with my multimeter and I confirmed it is of the correct capacitance, and the voltage is superior. Appart from the difficulty of physically attaching it to the PCB (it is one of those almost-microscopical, PCB-mounted ones), I'm really afraid of frying the entire power supply with something that looks that fragile...

The same happens with the other two biggest, rectangular blue capacitors: the one I got are half their sizes or less.

I also bought some kind of "silver paint" specially for repairing PCB. I'm going to attempt to repair the eroded tracks from the two 2x4 old, non-functioning machines I bought the past summer and that I've been using mostly for spare parts. Last night I already painted the non-existing parts of the tracks with this. I've never used this "paint" before, but it looks to me like I'll need several layers of this to make the new tracks conductive enough... Any suggestions on its use will be greatly appreciated.

I'm still banging my head with the cause of the white horizontal, noisy, sparky lines with the Interfunk 2x8, and why it looked perfect when I 1st played the "good" tape, then went to awful when playing the "bad" one, then to "medium" when playing again the "good" one and improving until having again a "perfect picture" after half and hour (until this everything seems logical to me...)... and then suddenly the white lines appeared at once with the "good" tape, not improving much after another half hour... Then I cleaned the heads and, when puting again the "good" tape, picture looked worst than ever, with the horizontal "flutering" or "waving" on the image...

It looks to me like if I've come to a dead end and this will be the permanent state for the machine

Any suggestions are welcome... I don't know what to try now

Erklärung von Abkürzungen

BID = 775747

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

the size of the capacitors may be really smaller than the original types.
Today, the industry is able to manufacture these parts a lot smaller than 25 years ago.
The blue caps are X or Y-types for noise supression in the power supply.

I have such caps, they are really small, even with the same capacity!

And also the electolyt caps are today very smaller than in the 80´s.

The only things you have to look for: The capacity must be the same and the max. voltage must be at least the same as of the original caps. A higher voltage is no problem, only if the mechanical dimensions are to big, so that the caps don´t fit.
And, of course, the cap type must be the same. When a Y-type is mounted, you must take a Y-type again.
(The Y-types are not so important to rechange. The electrolyt caps are more important, especially of the ERO brand. They get dry after 25 years a lot.)

With the sparks on your Interfunk:
It is possible, that the dynamic track following system does not work properly.
That will be very difficult to find the fault.
First, you have to measure the voltage on the contacts on top of the head drum (one for each head).
With a oscilloscope, the voltage has to be relative "flat", no big deflections up or down shoult be displayed on the screen of the scope.

perhaps, a cold soldering point is on the "Servo/DTF"-module, so the tracking system is interrupting sometimes.

Please take a look at the tape run: Is the tape running correctly over all heads? Or does it move up or down anywhere?
I guess a mechanical problem with the tape run. A very little mismatch on the tape run will be enough for getting a noisy picture...
V-2000 is very sensitive with the tape run...

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 776299

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

I thought I published this but I didn't, so here it goes...

I'd like to buy some spare parts, specially the belts on the tape mechanism for the 2x4. I have one of my machines without them, and the ones on the other one look like if they were about to break... I remember reading on the forum that they are available to buy in http://www.elektronik-werkstatt.de/; unfortunately, Google Translate doesn't work with this page (I don't know why) and the site is very large and uncomfortable for me to surf, and it's hard for me to find the components. If anyone can point me to the proper area... (or maybe suggest an alternative way to find compatible pieces).

Stego, tonight I'll try another (!!) head cleaning and also a motor commutator one. This time I'll put in there my own combination of vaseline plus graphite instead of vaseline only. Just to try :D. Also I'll look carefully for any misalignements in the tape run. Unfortunately, I don't own an oscilloscope...

Also, I'm already reading some tutorials on X and Y supression capacitors, of wich I didn't know anything prior to your post. Unfortunately too, I've found that half the ones I ordered are of no use for me . At least there are some that, appart from being smaller than the original ones, seem to be OK. But I have to note that one of the ones that "exploded" on one of my two 2x4 machines almost a year ago was one of those X or Y, the biggest blue one.

I also bought a thermistor for one of those 2x4, which was phisically broken. I've never used a thermistor before, the specs on the service manual were only talking of ohms, so I ordered the only one in the entire Farnell catalog that matched that resistance, although I suspect that some other parameters are missing and I'm afraid of changing the original one before assuring it's OK to do it (I also don't know if it is working properly even if it is phisically "cracked" since I don't know how to measure it).

I've already spent many hours and a considerable amount of money on this, with no success at all. Hey, at least I'm learning a lot...

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BID = 776322

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

look at the website http://www.elektronik-werkstatt.de and write #13144 into the field "Suchbegriff" (left side), then you get the "176-VIDEO-RIEMENSATZ KK2-43 176-VIDEO-RIEMENSATZ" , it costs 11,52 EUR.
I don´t know, if the Holder of the online shop (is the admin of this forum ) can send this to spain.

I would NOT use any graphite, because perhaps it causes some short circuits between two or more of the comutator contacts!

Sometimes, the X- or Y-Caps are dead, they can even explode!
In the 70´s and 80´s, a lot of TV-sets had such X-Caps branded "ITT", which have caused many fires!
The TV service points had technical order from the manufacturers of the tv sets to change these yellow ITT caps at every service of any tv set.

Best regards,
stego

_________________


[ Diese Nachricht wurde geändert von: stego am 18 Jul 2011 21:51 ]

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Perepandel

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Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Ok, here I go.

So I've spent the entire day without even touching the street "playing" with my videos.

I have replaced all the electrolytic caps in my FM404 power supply, almost all the non-electrolytic, all the ICs, some diodes and transistors and a couple of resistors. Every component I could measure was OK, excepting, of course, the BU208A wich was broken and prevented the power supply (this the vídeo) to start.

As I told in previous messages, also I have a couple of non-working old 2x4. One of them had an exploded capacitor, so I was using it for spares. The other one was functioning well for a day when I got it, until I exchanged one PCB for another and never made it work properly again. That was about a year ago. But I am sure the power supply was OK.

Well, I got plenty of capacitors and yesterday I got a new BU208A, so I "recomposed" the power supply I was using for spares. I measured the tensions now that I have the service manual and guess what... The 12 V lines where giving 12.5. The -7 was almost exact. Also the 33 was 33.3. But... guess what? The +15 was about 17 and some. And the 150 were about 7 more volts!

Then I got the other, "intact" power supply from the other 2x4. Guess what. I GOT ALMOST THE SAME VALUES!

It's very unprobably that both the two power supplies are broken and both are giving the same incorrect values. I've also used both PCBs in the same working (before I broke it) machine successfully. So I'm almost sure both suppplies are working properly.

I have yet to measure the Interfunk 2x8 power lines, but I am sure I will get the same values.

So I'm starting to suspect that the power supply from the FM404 is OK and that the problem resides in some other part of the machine.
12 to 15 are no that difference, and, I I'm not wrong, they are used for the button functions, so I shouldn't be that critical. Also 19 to 22 is not that much difference for 20 V (and it is used in the "accu", if I'm right).

Maybe I've spent a lot of time and lost some money in something that was completely OK...

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stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

after repairing the power supply, the 12 V and 15 V must get alligned as shown in the service manual.
The 12V voltage should have 12,05 V (+/- 0,01V) in playing state.
The 15V voltage should get alligned to 15,2 V (+/- 0,1 V) in recording state of the VCR.

After allignment of the 12 and 15V lines, the other voltages should be inside the tolerances, because some of the other voltages come out of the 12 and 15 volt lines or they are addicted to them.

Replacing all the caps is not neccessary, only the electrolyc caps (brand "ERO") must get changed. The others are most of them ok, and also the resistors usally are ok.
The IC´s and transistors only must get changed if they are bad.
The most "aging" parts are the electrolyc capacitors.

Best regards and good luck,
stego

_________________

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Perepandel

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Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

But the 12 and 15 V I'm measuring are with the PCB of the power supply OUT of the machine! That's what I interpreted from the service manual from the "D" inside the V. Also I could not test the voltages while playing since the machine wont play, it's only showing a red led on the "tape" button pointing up after inserting a tape...

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stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

if you are measuring on the power supply OUTSIDE the machine, the voltages won´t be right!
There is no load on the voltages.

Then, try to measure inside the machine with a cassette inside in stop position, because then there is at least a little load on the power supply.

Allign the 12V as exact as possible as shown in the service manual.

Some switching power supplies don´t start up without a load connected.
And the others cannot regulate their voltages correct without a load.

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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Perepandel

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Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego!

Long time since last time I wrote here...

I'm giving up temporary on my FM404. Now I'm dedicating my efforts to my two Grundig 2x4. I think they deserved their own thread, so I've opened it here:

https://forum.electronicwerkstatt.d.....79750

If you wanna take a look there...

I want to place an order for the belts and rubbers, but in the same package I'd like to obtain replacements for the "rubber washers" of the "Bremslüftmagnetschalter", which are broken on all my machines, and also for the rubber washers for the 4 screws which attach the entire tape mechanism to the chassis... Do you know if I can also get them in the store? Or any hint in where to get them?

Many thanks again and best regards!!!

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BID = 779818

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

the rubbers on the break magnet are no longer avilable.
Only because the belts are standard sizes, they are still avilable.

But special parts for the V-2000 are out at least since Grundig is insolvent und was assumed by the turkish BEKO-Group.
Today, the devices sold under the brand "Grundig" have nothing to do with the earlier, german produced GRUNDIGs. The quality of this turkish devices is not worth at all to carry the honourable GRUNDIG sign...

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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Perepandel

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Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego!

What a shame... I knew Grundig was out of bussiness, but didn't know of its final fate with a new Turkish owner...

Anyway, do you think the rubber in the magnet is that critical? it seems to me like they are, as seem to keep something in tension to avoid vibration or so, but I don't know if they can work without them. So if they are critical, I should search for a substitute.

I'm going to try to make an order of the belts now!
Thanks again!

[ Diese Nachricht wurde geändert von: Perepandel am  7 Aug 2011 13:01 ]

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stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

the rubber pads in the breaks are not so neccessary, because the tape gets stopped by the two reel motors. The pads are only built in, if the machine is transported with a tape inserted. Then the tape will get loose. But, if the V-2000 only stands on its place, the rubber pads don´t have any important job to do...

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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