with Help two Grundig 2x4: drilling sound, machine aborts after starting playing

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Help with two Grundig 2x4: drilling sound, machine aborts after starting playing

    







BID = 785337

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel
 

  


Hi Stego!

No way... I'm giving up!!

I measured the DTF tensions on top of the head drum... They are near zero while playing, and, as you explained, they change to a higher/lower value when I press pause (they vary in a range between about +/-30 V). That's in my two "working" machines, 2x4 and 2x8.

So that sounds fine to me... I am totally convinced that the video heads are worn/damaged in some way. So sad, but it's better to assume it. The Interfunk 2x8 seem to have more "variable" snow, going more easily from minimum to maximum; the 2x4 with the replaced head has more "stable" noise, with a bigger ammount of it or that is what seems to me (anyway, I've seen this machine playing with near to zero or zero noise; moreover, it's the only one where I've attempted to record and I've seen the same recorded tape played with and without noise, in both machines - amazing!).

If anyone has a spare head drum for a 2x4 Best Nr. 2000, I'm listening for offers...

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BID = 785359

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

 

  

I should have a head drum, somewhere in my stock, but I must look for the machine. It´s a silver-black Grundig 2x4, No. 2000, as I remember. The head was ok, but the rest...

By the way: The heads are the correct types? With a stamp "LP" on the head, this is for a Longplay-machine, like 2x8 2080/2280/2280a.
For the 2000/2200 "only" 2x4 without LP, you need a head drum without the stamp mark "LP". A wrong head drum provides a bad picture quality.

Also, you must not change modules from a 2x8 machine to a 2x4 and vice versa.

I don´t know the part numbers of both head drums now off-hand.

I´m looking on the forthcoming weekend in my stock, what parts I have.
Then you hear again from me.

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 785467

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego!

The machine of this thread, as stated in the label in the back of the machine, is a Grundig 2x4 "Best Nr. 2000" FTZ - Nr. 24/501 SK.

The other machine I also mentioned, which finally has almost the same symptoms as the above, is an Interfunk 2x8 VR-IF 1522 FTZ-Nr. 24/672 SK.
It is an LP machine, has the "2x8" and the "stereo" labels on the front, and it looks exactly like the pictures in the service manual, so I guess it is virtually the same as the Grundig 2x8 2280. I don't know what a "switching power supply" is (as far as I know, it is the only difference with the "a" model), but it looks to me very similar to the one in my 2x4 machines so I guess it is NOT the "a" variant.

So I guess any of both variants of the head drum could be good for me, as both machines need a replacement, so at least I could repair one machine!

Also, I can confirm that the 2x8 has something like an "LP" (looks to me a bit more like "IP", but well) stamped in black ink, along other letters here and there in black and another stamp in blue. It also has a couple of stickers, one white, one orange, which read:
WHITE:
110G (horizontally)
W23 (vertically, to the right)
ORANGE:
507 (vertically, to the left)
47221
008.05 (horizontally)

The 2x4 head has also white and orange stickers, whit the following written on them:
WHITE:
109G (horizontaly)
W23 (vertically, to the right)
ORANGE:
097 (vertically, left)
47221
008.00 (horizontally)
It also seem to have something stamped in black, that even may be "LP", but I didn't want to remove the sticker, and also this is not an LP machine, so I doubt it!

Hope it helps, and also hope to hear from you soon!


Offtopic :
By the way, I haven't been able to see the "beilagescheiben" yet! :D
[/ot]

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BID = 785507

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Yes, that´s right. The Interfunk machine is the same as the Grundig 2280 without "a". I have repaired one of exactly this type in the last winter, during the christmas days.
It´s a stereo recorder with longplay and audio dubbing feature. The top-of-the range machine from Grundig.

The No. 2000 is the basic V-2000 machine of this generation, only SP and mono sound.

The head drums are the correct types for both VCRs.

I will see, what I can do for you. A LP-type head drum is also in stock, as far as I remember, and should also be OK.

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 785536

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego... Thanks a lot for helping! I know it's really difficult to find replacement heads nowadays and that they probably are very valued! I will be very glad to make bussiness with you in case you find them

The tapes I want to transfer are all recorded in mono and SP; also, I like to high tolerance to loss of colour that my 2x4 seems to have for bad-quality tapes (the Interfunk tends to play more tapes just in B&W)... although who knows, maybe all that is also due to the head wear, too... Also, it would be great to have a working, full, top of the range machine for "sentimental purposes", too! Let's see what you have in stock

I guess I could have ended a lot quicker had I bought one of those expensive and "full working" machines listed on eBay... But also I'd missed the fun part of trying to revive them learning a lot ahd sharing thoughts with you and other users here on the forum!

Too bad there's no market nowadays to open a V2000 service store!

By the way, I still have an "entire" head drum for a Philips V2000 machine at home I managed to get about 10 years ago or so to "repair" my father's player... Of course I didn't manage to do so and the head is probably ruined :P, but who knows, the head maybe still works and could do its job...

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BID = 785785

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

now today I have taken a look into my stock. I found a 2x8 (LP) head drum, this should be ok, as far as I remember.
The 2x4 head drum... I haven´t found it now! Perhaps it is still built in the machine. I didn´t look so long, because the weather this weekend was fantastic! Sorry!

Now, if you want, I can test the 2x8 head drum inside my own Siemens FM-328 (= Grundig 2080). But then you must wait until the next weekend, from monday to thursday i have not enough time to do something in my repair room.

Next weekend I can also take a look into the 2x4 machine, for the head drum.

Tell me please, if you want a 2x4 or a 2x8 head drum, or even both.

One or two more machines should be on the loft of our car garage - but I cannot go upstairs, because there´s no ladder, since we have built in electric sectional garage doors. The guard rails of the doors are longer than those of the old doors, so we had to remove the trap door with the ladder. If we let the trap door inside the garage ceiling, we had no chance to get up to the loft, because we couldn´t open it!

So, I have to wait, until I manage to organize a few friends, who can jump up and give down all the electronic stuff from the loft into my repair garage.

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 786025

Tom-Driver

Inventar



Beiträge: 8792
Wohnort: Berlin-Spandau
Zur Homepage von Tom-Driver

@Perepandel: Sorry for the next lines in German, but it's just only offtopic...!

Offtopic :

@Stego: Was ist das denn für ein Krampf? Blockierten die Sektionaltorschienen echt die Klapptür (oder nur deren Leiter)?
Wer baut denn sowas ?!
Kannst Du denn nichtmal bei geschlossenem Tor mit einer Stand- oder Anlegeleiter alleine auf den Dachboden gelangen?

Ungläubig kopfschüttelnd, grüßt der (sowohl bei Video 2000 als auch beim Garagentor... ) interessierte Mitleser:

TOM.


_________________
[x] <= Hier Nagel einschlagen für neuen Monitor!

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BID = 786059

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hahahaha! What a story! I cannot believe the story of the gerage. It's hilarious! Tom, don't say sorry for writting in your language! Remember, it was me who invaded your forum with a foreign one! Now it's no joke, this forum has bring me lots of help, its so kind to allow foreign users to write in English, and people here are true experts sharing their knowledge with ignorants like me, so cheers to you all! Without your help, my two "dead" machines would had ended in the rubbish.

By the way, I couldn't resist to made a Google Translator pass to Tom's offtopic text

Stego, I'd go for both head drum in case it was possible! Could I made two full-functional machines from my two half-working ones so I'd have a "backup" one would be great! Or who knows, this is so delicate that maybe I just can make one work, so this would be a way to increase success possibilites. But it corresponds to you to tell me what is available!

Now we've come to this point, I'm not in a hurry and I have all the patience to wait to whatever check, test or what you need to do! But do what you feel more comfortable with, I don't want to make you do any extra efforts or whatever! So I'll be waiting for your news to see what's next to do

Hope this has been understandable enough; I'm quite tired and sleepy!

Oh, be sure I'll volunteer to help you taking out your stuff from the loft - too bad I'm too far from there!

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BID = 786088

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452


Offtopic :
@Tom:
So ist es! Wir mußten die "Falltür" ausbauen, weil sie sonst nicht mehr zu öffnen gewesen wäre!

Vorher waren herkömmliche Schwingtore drin, die hatten deutlich kürzere Führungsschienen, als die jetzigen Sektionaltore.

So, um überhaupt auf den Garagen-Dachboden zu kommen, haben wir vor dem Einbau der Sektionaltore die "Falltür" ausgebaut. Man kommt jetzt nur mit einer Leiter bzw. Stafflei auf den Dachboden rauf.
Die Falltür-Öffnung ist nämlich GENAU an der Stelle, etwas seitlich in der Garage, wo jetzt die rechte Führungsschiene des rechten Garagentores montiert ist! Und ca. 40-50 cm ragt diese Schiene in die Öffnung hinein!

Als das Haus 1981 gebaut wurde, dachte niemand an Sektionaltore, und die Öffnung für die "Falltür" wurde halt so eingebaut, daß sie oben an der höchsten Stelle (Giebel) des Garagendachbodens rauskommt. Diese Stelle war genau dort, wo die Führungsschienen des alten Schwingtores endeten. Man konnte -auch bei geöffnetem Tor- die Falltür problemlos herunter lassen.

Daß nun die Führungsschienen der neuen Tore stören, ahnte vor 30 Jahren niemand...

Nachdem ich körperlich nicht so gut drauf bin (Gehbehindert), traue ich mir das alleine nicht unbedingt zu. Lieber ist´s mir, wenn jemand da raufsteigt, der sicherer auf einer Leiter stehen kann als ich.

Wenn die Story nicht so sch... wäre, dann könnte man echt meinen, daß wäre ein Witz. Ist es aber nicht...


Back to topic:
@Perepandel:
Then I will test the 2x8 head drum inside my machine as well as I will search again for the 2x4 head drum. Perhaps, I can test it also in my 2x8 machine (it should at least show a picture in SP mode).

Then, I´ll give you new message, next weekend.

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 787059

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

now, the 2x8 head drum is working fine!
The 2x4 head drum.... I haven´t found it until today...

If you want to wait until the next weekend, I will take a look on my garage loft, perhaps there´s a 2x4 with a good head drum, then I can take it out and test it as well.

So long for the moment,

best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 787226

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Thanks for the feedback, Stego! I'm glad to hear that the 2x8 head is in good shape!
I'm going to wait and see if you find something for my 2x4 also, now that I've came to an end where both machines are "almost" working Also I'm not in a hurry: I'm still waiting for the belts I ordered about... 2 months! ago so I am able to recover at least one machine in a "state of the art" shape

Also I've found a couple of projects to help me lose my -very little- free time, more or less related to this: I want to try to build a homemade oscilloscope with my bt878 capture card, which probably would be useful enough to measure the signals from my v2000 machine; I'm experimenting with Avisynth scripting language to make some cleaning to my captured vids; I want to compile a bt878 driver for win 7 64 bit...

By the way, I played a bit more with my "defectice" video heads... I put the broken one again on the machine -after cleaning all the plastic debris- and the image quality was the same as the last time: black & white with the vertical bars... so that confirms at least I didn't break it; it was already broken :P. I was tempted about using the other head in that drum, after unscrewing it, as a replacement for one in my "noisy" drums... Do you think that would be possible, or simply a lot more precission is needed? Anyway, I aborted my temptations 'cause first I want to convince myself that they are really broken... I again tried many cleaning attempts, one with a blank paper instead of a cloth, another with... PCB circuit cleaner! (yeah, I know maybe that's a bit agressive :P)... Againf, in some attempts I got perfect clean image at one point, but after that it again became progressively noisy. I want to make a capture of the same footage, with and without noise, to let you take a more precise diagnostic! Could it be a mechanical problem, maybe too much/not enough pressure or tension on the tape, or irregular ones so there's no good contact with the tape? Years ago I had a defective hi8 camcorder which would show the same sparkles, but they would not dissapear whatever I'd try; they just went progressively worse until I changed the heads!

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BID = 787309

stego

Schreibmaschine

Beiträge: 2452

Hello Perepandel,

now then, I will take one more look into my stock for a good 2x4 head drum.

Why does V-2000 have more and again less sparks? You know, V-2000 has no "normal" sync-signal (like VHS and all those other formats), but a very difficult "Dynamic Track Following" system.
And now that the heads are worn, the DTF system runs out of track, sometimes it runs back again, and so on.
That´s why the sparks appear and disappear again.

Another fault may be inside the circuit of the DTF system.
My first thought was, the plug from the "SERVO/DTF" module to the upper contacts of the head drum was bad/broken, and so the DTF voltage was not present at the piezo elements. Because, if I pull off this plug from the circuit board, exactly the same symptomes appear: picture quality gets bad..bad..bad..better..better..better...bad...bad...bad - and so on.

One of the two heads - no, it´s no good idea to take them into another head drum. Because, the two heads were mounted in the Grundig factory at less than 1/100 mm accurately corresponding to the V-2000 standard. Nobody without those expensive equipment is able to mount the heads so precise! Yes, the DTF would compensate some of the mismatch - but never all of it. That would end in a one-way road...

You hear from me again next weekend!

Best regards,
stego

_________________

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BID = 787354

Perepandel

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 82
Wohnort: Miramar (Platja)
Zur Homepage von Perepandel

Hi Stego! Interesting thoughts... I heard something about that but I didn't know surely that V2000 lacked a sync track at all... In fact, I don't know what a "tracking system" is at all, just that the one in our machines is "dynamic"

When disconnecting the cable from the DTF module, I also get the effects you describe, appart from the sparks, but seem more like image distortions in the upper and lower parts pf the image (like dropouts or so) - just like what happens most of times after putting a tape when operating normally until, I guess, yhe dynamic tracking gets adjusted...

One more thought: if I'm not wrong, my non-working fm404 has only one head... What are the other one in the 2x4 drum for? Is it for better quality? Maybe for recording? If that's the case, maybe I could exchange the heads positions, just to see what happens

I'll be waiting for your news in those shiny head drums!

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BID = 787475

onnanokodesu

Gelegenheitsposter



Beiträge: 85
Wohnort: nirenno
Zur Homepage von onnanokodesu ICQ Status  


Zitat :
if I'm not wrong, my non-working fm404 has only one head...What are the other one in the 2x4 drum for? Is it for better quality? Maybe for recording?

Either you are completly wrong, you are kidding, or this drum is completely and utterly shot.
On every V2000 (and VHS) head drum, there need to be at least 2 heads on opposing sides of the drum.
But maybe a picture may help to sort this out.


Zitat :
You know, V-2000 has no "normal" sync-signal (like VHS and all those other formats), but a very difficult "Dynamic Track Following" system.

I do think the V2000 does have a recorded sync signal and makes use of it. But instead of a seperately recorded one, it uses the sync pulses embedded in the video signal itself (either the currently played back video, or the video to be recorded) to adjust the drum speed on record, and the drum phase loop on both rec/pb (pin 29 Chroma Module to DTF Servo, I figure).
If it was otherwise I'd fail to see how they would be able to control the head switchover to stay outside the visible area of the picture at approx 8 horizontal scanlines ahead of Vsync.
And I also fail to see how the capstan phase and speed loop would be able to compensate for slight imperfections of prerecorded video (maybe even recorded on a different machine), when it was restricted to an unsynced e.g. CPU controlled free running mode on playback.

Moreover haven't there been lowcost V2000 with "fixed" head tips and therefor no active DTF at the end of the era? If so, and if DTF was the equivalent to the VHS sync signal, how could a V2000 sans DTF have been possible?

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BID = 787495

Trumbaschl

Inventar



Beiträge: 7557
Wohnort: Wien


Zitat :
Moreover haven't there been lowcost V2000 with "fixed" head tips and therefor no active DTF at the end of the era? If so, and if DTF was the equivalent to the VHS sync signal, how could a V2000 sans DTF have been possible?

Yes, if I remember correctly, the Grundig 1600, a fairly late model, was severely cut down in order to make it cheaper, more or less as a last attempt to keep V2000 alive, and that one didn't have DTF. Not supposed to work too well.

_________________
"Und dann kommen's zu ana Tür da steht oben "Eintritt verboten!" und da miaßn's eine!"

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